Category Archives: Email Debates

Debates over email or in my own forum

The Unreal Universe — Discussion with Gibran

Hi again,You raise a lot of interesting questions. Let me try to answer them one by one.

You’re saying that our observations of an object moving away from us would look identical in either an SR or Galilean context, and therefore this is not a good test for SR.

What I’m saying is slightly different. The coordinate transformation in SR is derived considering only receding objects and sensing it using radar-like round trip light travel time. It is then assumed that the transformation laws thus derived apply to all objects. Because the round trip light travel is used, the transformation works for approaching objects as well, but not for things moving in other directions. But SR assumes that the transformation is a property of space and time and asserts that it applies to all moving (inertial) frames of reference regardless of direction.

We have to go a little deeper and ask ourselves what that statement means, what it means to talk about the properties of space. We cannot think of a space independent of our perception. Physicists are typically not happy with this starting point of mine. They think of space as something that exists independent of our sensing it. And they insist that SR applies to this independently existing space. I beg to differ. I consider space as a cognitive construct based on our perceptual inputs. There is an underlying reality that is the cause of our perception of space. It may be nothing like space, but let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the underlying reality is like Galilean space-time. How would be perceive it, given that we perceive it using light (one-way travel of light, not two-way as SR assumes)? It turns out that our perceptual space would have time dilation and length contraction and all other effect predicted by SR. So my thesis is that the underlying reality obeys Galilean space-time and our perceptual space obeys something like SR. (It is possible that if I assume that our perception uses two-way light travel, I may get SR-like transformation. I haven’t done it because it seems obvious to me that we perceive a star, for instance, by sensing the light from it rather than flashing a light at it.)

This thesis doesn’t sit well with physicists, and indeed with most people. They mistakeperceptual effects to be something like optical illusions. My point is more like space itself is an illusion. If you look at the night sky, you know that the stars you see are not “real” in the sense that they are not there when you are looking at them. This is simply because the information carrier, namely light, has a finite speed. If the star under observation is in motion, our perception of its motion is distorted for the same reason. SR is an attempt to formalize our perception of motion. Since motion and speed are concepts that mix space and time, SR has to operate onspace-time continuum. Since SR is based on perceptual effects, it requires an observer and describes motion as he perceives it.

But are you actually saying that not a single experiment has been done with objects moving in any other direction than farther away? And what about experiments on time dilation where astronauts go into space and return with clocks showing less elapsed time than ones that stayed on the ground? Doesn’t this support the ideas inherent in SR?

Experiments are always interpreted in the light of a theory. It is always a model based interpretation. I know that this is not a convincing argument for you, so let me give you an example. Scientists have observed superluminal motion in certain celestial objects. They measure the angular speed of the celestial object, and they have some estimate of its distance from us, so they can estimate the speed. If we didn’t have SR, there would be nothing remarkable about this observation of superluminality. Since we do have SR, one has to find anexplanation for this. The explanation is this: when an object approaches us at a shallow angle, it can appear to come in quite a bit faster than its real speed. Thus the “real” speed is subluminal while the “apparent” speed may be superluminal. This interpretation of the observation, in my view, breaks the philosophical grounding of SR that it is a description of the motion as it appears to the observer.

Now, there are other observations of where almost symmetric ejecta are seen on opposing jets in symmetric celestial objects. The angular speeds may indicate superluminality in both the jets if the distance of the object is sufficiently large. Since the jets are assumed to be back-to-back, if one jet is approaching us (thereby giving us the illusion of superluminality), the other jet has bet receding and can never appear superluminal, unless, of course, the underlying motion is superluminal. The interpretation of this observation is that the distance of the object is limited by thefactthat real motion cannot be superluminal. This is what I mean by experiments being open to theory or model based interpretations.

In the case of moving clocks being slower, it is never a pure SR experiment because you cannot find space without gravity. Besides, one clock has to be accelerated or decelerated and GR applies. Otherwise, the age-old twin paradox would apply.

I know there have been some experiments done to support Einstein’s theories, like the bending of light due to gravity, but are you saying that all of them can be consistently re-interpreted according to your theory? If this is so, it’s dam surprising! I mean, no offense to youyou’re obviously a very bright individual, and you know much more about this stuff than I do, but I’d have to question how something like this slipped right through physicistsfingers for 100 years.

These are gravity related questions and fall under GR. My “theory doesn’t try to reinterpret GR or gravity at all. I put theory in inverted quotes because, to me, it is a rather obvious observation that there is a distinction between what we see and the underlying causes of our perception. The algebra involved is fairly simple by physics standards.

Supposing you’re right in that space and time are actually Galilean, and that the effects of SR are artifacts of our perception. How then are the results of the Michelson-Morley experiments explained? I’m sorry if you did explain it in your book, but it must have flown right over my head. Or are we leaving this as a mystery, an anomaly for future theorists to figure out?

I haven’t completely explained MMX, more or less leaving it as a mystery. I think the explanation hinges on how light is reflected off a moving mirror, which I pointed out in the book. Suppose the mirror is moving away from the light source at a speed of v in our frame of reference. Light strikes it at a speed of c-v. What is the speed of the reflected light? If the laws of reflection should hold (it’s not immediately obvious that they should), then the reflected light has to have a speed of c-v as well. This may explain why MMX gives null result. I haven’t worked out the whole thing though. I will, once I quit my day job and dedicate my life to full-time thinking. :-)

My idea is not a replacement theory for all of Einstein’s theories. It’s merely a reinterpretation of one part of SR. Since the rest of Einstein’s edifice is built on this coordinate transformation part, I’m sure there will be some reinterpretation of the rest of SR and GR also based on my idea. Again, this is a project for later. My reinterpretation is not an attempt to prove Einstein’s theories wrong; I merely want to point out that they apply to reality as we perceive it.

Overall, it was worth the $5 I payed. Thanks for the good read. Don’t take my questions as an assault on your proposalI’m honestly in the dark about these things and I absolutely crave light (he he). If you could kindly answer them in your spare time, I’d love to share more ideas with you. It’s good to find a fellow thinker to bounce cool ideas like this off of. I’ll PM you again once I’m fully done the book. Again, it was a very satisfying read.

Thanks! I’m glad that you like my ideas and my writing. I don’t mind criticism at all. Hope I have answered most of your questions. If not, or if you want to disagree with my answers, feel free to write back. Always a pleasure to chat about these things even if we don’t agree with each other.

– Best regards,
– Manoj

Wat is eg,,en,Besprekings met Ranga,,en,Hierdie boodskap is 'n lang bespreking per e-pos wat ek met my vriend Ranga gehad het,,en,Die onderwerp was die onwerklikheid van die werklikheid van dinge en hoe hierdie begrip in die fisika toegepas kan word,,en,Gaan weer deur die debat,,en,Ek voel dat Ranga homself beter bekwaam in die filosofiese aangeleenthede beskou as ek,,en,ek doen ook,,en,Ek beskou hom as beter gelees as ek,,en,Maar ek voel dat sy aanname,,en,dat ek nie soveel geweet het dat ek oor sulke dinge moes praat nie,,en,het miskien sy mening bevooroordeeld en hom verblind vir sommige van die werklik nuwe dinge,,en,na my mening,,en,Ek moes sê,,en,nietemin,,en,Ek dink daar is 'n hele paar interessante punte wat tydens die debat na vore gekom het wat van algemene belang kan wees,,en,Ek het die debat geredigeer en geformateer vir leesbaarheid,,en? Discussions with Ranga.

This post is a long email discussion I had with my friend Ranga. The topic was the unreality of reality of things and how this notion can be applied in physics.

Going through the debate again, I feel that Ranga considers himself better-versed in the matters of philosophy than I am. I do too, I consider him better read than me. But I feel that his assumption (that I didn’t know so much that I should be talking about such things) may have biased his opinion and blinded him to some of the genuinely new things (in my opinion, of course) I had to say. Nonetheless, I think there are quite a few interesting points that came out during the debate that may be of general interest. I have edited and formatted the debate for readability.

Dit is waar dat baie blink mense nadink oor die dinge waaroor ek in hierdie blog en in my boek praat,,en,En hulle het hul gedagtes in hul werke verwoord,,en,waarskynlik beter as wat ek in myne het,,en,Alhoewel dit altyd 'n goeie idee is om deur die bestaande geskrifte te gaan,,en,maak my kop skoon,,en,soos een van my beoordelaars voorgestel het terwyl ek David Humes aanbeveel het,,en,so 'n wye lees skep 'n inherente risiko,,en,Dit is nie soseer die tyd wat dit sal neem om die geskrifte en die gepaardgaande geleentheidskoste daaraan te lees en te verstaan ​​nie,,en,dit is ook die feit dat alles wat u lees in u geassimileer raak en u opinies beïnvloed word deur hierdie briljante denkers,,en,Dit kan 'n goeie ding wees,,en,Ek kyk daarna asof dit die oorspronklike denke nadelig kan beïnvloed,,en,Tot die uiterste geneem,,en. And they have articulated their thoughts in their works, probably better than I have in mine. Although it is always a good idea to go through the existing writings to “clear my head” (as one of my reviewers suggested while recommending David Humes), such wide reading creates an inherent risk. It is not so much the time it will take to read and understand the writings and the associated opportunity cost in thinking; it is also the fact that everything you read gets assimilated in you and your opinions become influenced by these brilliant thinkers. While that may be a good thing, I look at it as though it may actually be detrimental to original thought. Taken to the extreme, sodanige blinde assimilasie kan daartoe lei dat u opinies bloot 'n oplewing van hierdie klassieke denkrigtings word,,en,soos Hermann Hesse impliseer,,en,Siddhartha,,en,wysheid kan nie geleer word nie,,en,Dit moet van binne gegenereer word,,en,Ranga se woorde is groen,,en,Blou wanneer dit vir die tweede keer aangehaal word,,en,Myne is in Wit,,en,Pers wanneer dit vir die tweede keer aangehaal word,,en,Mon,,en,PM,,en,Ek is,,en,in verskillende mate,,en,vertroud is met die onderskeiding wat filosowe en wetenskaplikes maak ten opsigte van fenomenale en fisieke realiteite,,en,uit die werke van Upanishads,,en,aan die Advaitas / Dvaitas,,en,na die Noumenon / verskynsel van Schopenhauer,,en,en die blok Heelal van Spesiale Relatiwiteit,,en,en selfs die onlangse teorieë in fisika,,en,Kaluza en Klein,,en,Die insig dat wat ons waarneem, is nie noodwendig wat nie,,en,bestaan ​​van 'n lang tyd op verskillende maniere,,en.

Besides, as Hermann Hesse implies in Siddhartha, wisdom cannot be taught. It has to be generated from within.

Ranga’s words are colored Green (or Blue when quoted for the second time).

Mine are in White (or Purple when quoted for the second time).

Mon, May 21, 2007 at 8:07 PM.

I’m, to different extents, familiar with the distinction philosophers and scientists make in terms of phenomenal and physical realities – from the works of Upanishads, to the Advaitas/Dvaitas, to the Noumenon/Phenomenon of Schopenhauer, and the block Universe of Special Relativity, and even the recent theories in physics (Kaluza and Klein). The insight that what we perceive is not necessarily what “is”, existed in a variety of ways from a long time. However, sulke insigte is nie maklik in alle wetenskappe omhels en opgeneem nie,,en,Daar is 'n enorme literatuur hieroor in neurowetenskappe en sosiale wetenskappe,,en,dit is inderdaad baie goed dat u probeer het om dit in die fisika in te bring,,en,deur ons vorige bespreking hieroor te onthou,,en,deur u inleiding tot die boek op die webwerf te lees en die kanteling van u referaat te verstaan,,en,kon dit nie in die joernaal vind nie,,en,is dit aanvaar,,en,Om aan te dui dat daar superluminale beweging kan wees en bekende verskynsels soos GRB's deur middel van 'n geluid kan verklaar,,en,in ons persepsie,,en,selfs in die fisiese instrumente,,en,is vrymoedig en het sorgvuldige aandag deur ander in die veld nodig,,en,Mens moet altyd vrae vra om oor te steek,,en,grense,,en,in hierdie geval natuurlik die snelheid van die lig,,en,dit is redelik onakkuraat en oppervlakkig,,en. There is a enormous literature on this in neuroscience and social sciences. So, it is indeed very good that you have attempted to bring this in to physics – by recollecting our previous discussion on this, by reading through your introduction to the book in the website and understanding the tilt of your paper (could not find it in the journal – has it been accepted?). To suggest that there could be superluminal motion and to explain known phenomena such as GRBs through a quirk (?) in our perception (even in the physical instruments) is bold and needs careful attention by others in the field. One should always ask questions to cross “perceived” boundaries – in this case of course the speed of light.

However, it is quite inaccurate and superficial (in my opinion) om te dink dat daar sommige is,,en,werklikheid buite die,,en,ons teëkom,,en,Alhoewel dit belangrik is om te weet dat daar verskillende realiteite vir verskillende individue in ons is,,en,en selfs verskillende organismes,,en,afhangende van sintuie en intellek,,en,dit is ewe belangrik om te vra wat die werklikheid is as daar geen persepsie is nie,,en,As dit nie op enige manier verkry kan word nie,,en,wat is dit in elk geval?,,en,Is daar so iets?,,en,Is absolute werklikheid in die beweging van planete,,en,sterre en sterrestelsels sonder organismes daarin,,en,Wie beskou dit as sodanig as daar niemand is wat dit kan raaksien nie,,en,Watter vorm neem hulle aan?,,en,Is daar vorm,,en,In die toepassing van filosofie,,en,wat ek net as dieper en dapper vrae lees,,en,na die wetenskap,,en,wat ek gelees het as 'n ernstige poging om die vrae te beantwoord,,en,jy kan nie half met jou metodes werk nie,,en “absolute” reality beyond the “reality” we encounter. While it is important to know that there are multiple realities for different individuals in us, and even different organisms, depending on senses and intellect, it is equally important to ask what reality is after all when there is no perception. If it cannot be accessed by any means, what is it anyway? Is there such a thing at all? Is Absolute Reality in the movement of planets, stars and galaxies without organisms in them? Who perceives them as such when there is nobody to perceive? What form do they take? Is there form? In applying philosophy (which I read just as deeper and bolder questions) to science (which I read as a serious attempt to answer those questions), you cannot be half-way in your methods, teken denkbeeldige grense dat sommige vrae vir nou te filosofies of teologies is,,en,Terwyl u boek,,en,die opsomming ten minste,,en,blyk 'n belangrike punt huis toe te bring,,en,ten minste vir diegene wat nie in hierdie rigting gedink het nie,,en,dat die werklikheid wat ons waarneem afhanklik is van die medium / modus,,en,lig in sommige gevalle,,en,en die instrument,,en,sintuigorgaan en brein,,en,ons gebruik om waar te neem,,en,dit lyk asof dit 'n oppervlakkige idee agterlaat dat daar absolute werklikheid bestaan ​​as u hierdie perseptuele foute verwyder,,en,Is dit waarnemingsfoute?,,en,is nie perseptuele instrumente en persepsies self deel van die werklikheid nie,,en,Om aan te dui dat daar 'n ander werklikheid is as die som van al ons persepsies, is filosofies ewe verkeerd as om aan te dui dat dit wat ons waarneem die enigste werklikheid is,,en,Almal dieselfde,,en.

While your book (the summary at least) seems to bring home an important point (at least to those who have not thought in this direction) that the reality we perceive is dependent on the medium/mode (light in some cases) and the instrument (sense organ and brain) we use for perceiving, it seems to leave behind a superficial idea that there is Absolute Reality when you remove these perceptual errors. Are they perceptual errors – aren’t perceptual instruments and perceptions themselves part of reality itself? To suggest that there is some other reality beyond the sum of all our perceptions is philosophically equally erroneous as suggesting that what we perceive is the only reality.

All the same, die vraag oor die werklikheid of die gebrek daaraan is nie goed in die fisiese wetenskappe opgeneem nie en ek wens u die beste in hierdie verband toe,,en,Cheers,,en,klasse,,ga,Superluminale laserpunte,,en,'N Mens dink aan “Wat is regtig,,en,Besprekings met Ranga.,,en,Skakelkennisgewing,,en,Blogargief,,en,Kommentaar gesluit,,en.